Friday, November 25, 2005

The debate continues

So the drugs debate appears to have started again on the Andrews's blogs.

Recently I was discussing this with Paul and I realised something that lots of people say when debating drug use being made legal and it's completely irrelevant. "Alcohol is a drug". But a completely different one to pot so what's the point of bringing that up in an arguement? They're different because they're used differently and because they are different things. If we all had alcohol as often and in the same amount as one might have pot then there would never be an issue with drink driving or anything else. Or if we used pot as often as we used alcohol then there's no way it should be made legal. They're completely different and to compare them is useless. They're used differently and in different quantities.

It's like comparing eggs and radishes. They're different! Both foods but if you put radishes in a cake mix instead of eggs you'd have something very strange and if you ate eggs as often as we eat radishes we'd miss out on vitamins and stuff that are important.

So using alcohol being a drug as a reason to make pot legal pointless.

23 comments:

Rayd said...

I totally agree. And if you wanted to be more specific about drugs then really it could come down to just about anything that you consume. I don't disagree with getting drunk, but i have chosen to keep away from it because i don't want to do anything that i will ever regret or have to say 'sorry God, i really stuffed up this time'. I mean i do that anyway, but i don't wanna do stuff that i know God doesnt want me to do. Just for the record for people who read all these blogs i'm the Andrew that isnt involved in this drug debate, so if you wanna read further into the debate dont go to my blog. Cheers.

Andrew said...

And I'm not involved in the debate either! The other Andrew is...
confused?

andrew brown said...

maybe it's me. well jo, 2 different drugs aye, sure thats right, but only half the picture. i don't understand your "If we all had alcohol as often and in the same amount as one might have pot then there would never be an issue with drink driving or anything else" because thats implying that people smoke a lot less than they drink? when i used to smoke it was every single day?

i was thinking the other day. WHY is weed illegal? WHY? for adults what is wrong with going home and getting high, health wise it's SO MUCH better for you than alcohol, and unlike alcohol weed isn't an INTOXICANT which means you don't get INTOXICATED, you don't lose control of yourself like drinking and it doesn't NUMB anything.

if you compare the overall population effects of alcohol to weed, there is no way that alcohol should be legal. how many people are alcoholics out there? alcoholism is a massive problem in our society, did you know that you can DIE from the withdrawl effects of alcohol? you can't die from the withdrawl effects of heroin or coke.


No I don't think they are similar drugs, not at all. But what we can discuss is their indirect effects. That we can compare. And alcohol looks way way WAY worse if you look it like that.

But just to end, once again, someone tell me WHY weed is illegal?

andrew brown said...

by the way, to reply to your "So using alcohol being a drug as a reason to make pot legal pointless." statement:

well, the reason people say "alcohol is legal" in the marijuana debate, is because all the reasons that people say marijuana should be illegal, are all relative to alcohol too. if you applied all the reasons that marijuana was illegal to alcohol then you'd see that not only should alcohol be illegal but is actually much worse than alcohol.

apart from illegality, i don't know what weed is viewed in such a harsher light than alcohol. both recreational drugs

Anonymous said...

To your question andrew I think the reason it's illegal is ... wow you should see the colors on my screen. It is freakin cool.... Oh, sorry. As I was saying, the reason it is illegal is .... man, I am really getting hungry. I wonder what's in the fridge... Sorry I drifted off agian. To answer your question....um, what was the questions again?

Jo said...

You're not listening though Andrew. Again you are comparing them when you can't! To use my analogy again: just cos radishes and eggs may have similar results (stop you being hungry, give you good stuff) they're still different! You couldn't say just cos they're both foods that they will go off at the same speed can you? Can you give me some good reason that pot should be legal that don't have anything to do with alcohol??

Also how many smokes did you have a day? Was it more than 2 or 3 a day? You wouldn't get pulled up for driving drunk if you had 2 or 3 beers over a day. And I wasn't implying I was stating. People really do smoke less pot then they drink alcohol.

Andrew said...

Oh, and Andrew, smoking pot increases the risk of developing gynecomastia
(www.gynecomastia.org) Do you want to have Man Boobs Andrew?

Andrew said...

Oh, and Andrew, smoking pot increases the risk of developing gynecomastia
(www.gynecomastia.org) Do you want to have Man Boobs Andrew?

Rayd said...

also andrew, you say you dont die from the withdrawal effects of heroin, have you even seen someone trying to quit? it's three days of pure hell if you dont have someone at your side you will either end up finding a fix or killing yourself and in the cases that people do have someone there beside them helping them through it all the person usually ends up going back to it anyway. You may not die from withdrawal of heroin by the heroin, but you may end up dead.

andrew brown said...

I understand what you mean Jo when you say they are different and can't be compared, and I do agree, they are different drugs that produce different effects, but you seem to be missing the point of why people compare them when it comes to the legalising issue. They compare them because they see it's hypocritical that alcohol is legal but weed isn't.

About the Heroin thing, I was just making the point that alcohol can be so dnagerous that the withdrawl symptons alone can kill. I wasn't trying to belittle the withdrawl effects of H

To the person talking about why weed is illegal, what you're saying doesn't make sense. Why should something be illegal because it gives people an increased appreciation for colour and/or food? What about alcohol? "man alcohol is legal it's great, man I think I just pounded a chick at that party man I had no idea what I was doing oh dude I think I got an STD"... Gee out of what you said and what I just did, what out of those 2 should be illegal?

Alcohol is ONLY legal because it's been a cornerstone of our society to get written off. If alcohol hadn't been around but just turned up today, guess what, it'd be completely illegal....

I don't get your "people smoke less weed than they drink alcohol" but what do you mean? In amount or frequency? Weed certainly gets smoked more often, and as far as the amount goes, well then you're right to say they can't be compared. Alcohol's effects start at pleasure/appreciation but soon start to turn into intoxication but weed doesn't really intoxicate a person when they get real stoned. Plus to a non-smoker it's hard to explain that regardless of how much weed you smoke, you get stoned. If you have 2 mouthfulls of beer you don't get drunk, but with weed, it gets you stoned, just not very stoned. On the weekdays I'd usually only have 1 or 2 smokes but on the weekend or when I had time off I'd often smoke first thing and continue to get high throughout the day.

"Can you give me some good reason that pot should be legal that don't have anything to do with alcohol"

Well, why should it be legal? More like why is it illegal It should be legal (without using alcohol arguments) because it's fun and you learn to appreciate different things and it's an extremely good painkiller/anti nausua/appetite enhancer/relaxant. It's impossible to die from, in fact not one person has ever died directly from taking too much weed, name ANY drug, illicit or not, that can claim that... It's one of the most effective painkillers out there, almost as good as morphine but guess what it's not physically addictive... And for those that care, Heroin is literally just Morphine with an extra bit on the side (It's known as Diacetyl Morphine), that goes into your brain and turns right into Morphine as soon as it gets there.

Why are people so hung up on weed? Why is it such a big deal that it may be made legal? What are people afraid of?

Anonymous said...

Do you know why weed is illegal andrew? I am asking this because I do not know the reason myself, however if you were really interested as to why it is you will know the laws and you would be arguing them instead of arguing against us comparing it to alcohol.

andrew brown said...

One of the main reasons weed is illegal is because as far as drug policy goes, most places follow the US. I don't think we have any different drug classifications over here that they do, except BZP (that stuff in party pills) which in the US is Schedule I (like class A)

So America, why is weed illegal? Well, because of the Mexicans. Years and years ago when jobs were bountiful in America, the had lots of jobs for anyone, and immigrantion was high, lots of Mexicans, lots of Chinese too. Now the Chinese loved to smoke their opium poppy (not unlike the high from Morphine) and the Mexicans loved to get blazed. But then OH NO crisis jobs weren't everywhere all of a sudden and so to combat it they made Opium and Weed illegal, they did lots of other things but those are just some things they did.

So why is weed illegal? Because it's illegal and thats the reason. Alcohol is only legal because it's legal, not because of anything to do with it itself. www.norml.org.nz has more answers on that.

So what can I argue against here? I'm not trying to make weed legal, I'm just pointing out a few things and maybe hopefully correcting a few non-truths out there in the community.

Andrew said...

Ah, look and the poor dope head, he's repeating himself again and again and he doesn't even know it. Aaaaawwwwwww.

andrew brown said...

but only i'm not a dope head and i don't smoke weed anymore......

Rayd said...

one reason why you shouldn't smoke it, it stuffs your brain, your heart, and other body parts (http://www.doitnow.org/pages/126.html) and if you claim to follow the Lord then you also follow His word and His word states that "the body is a temple, keep it holy" and "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own" (1Corninthians 6:19)
Smoking weed is like selling merchandise in the temple which is your body, and we all know what Jesus thinks of that.
Do you need other evidence to prove it wrong? And do not go to comparing it to Alcohol because it would be going against your own word. Alcohol is bad, and in all truth (when thinking it over) it should probably be banned also, but like you said Andrew Brown, it is a part of our culture and will not easily be changed. Marijuana on the other hand is not legal at present time and therefore should stay that way, we arent to welcome inequities into our life merely because we already have others, we should be working on ways to get the others out.

andrew brown said...

i agree with almost everything you say there. unfortunately one link to a page that tells the health risks of weed isn't going to convince me of anything considering the amount of research i've seen that proves it doesn't harm the body, but i do agree with the rest. i don't think it's right for christians to do. but i guess i'm not trying to say what christians should or shouldn't feel free to do, i'm just talking about law. i think it should be legal because approx 1/3 of the population has tried it and there has been no direct health health problem associated with it, so should 1/3 of the population have a criminal record? extremely prohibitive drug laws don't necessarily protect "us" from drugs very well.

don't get me wrong. i'm not saying i think people should get high, but people do anyway, a lot of people, i'm just arguing as to why it's illegal. we live in a predominatly un-christian nation and we can't expect to force christian values on people who don't care for christianity at all. it's not right. we wouldn't like it if islam values were forced on us.

Anonymous said...

Slavery was legal for a long time, maybe it should've stayed that way too? Or could it be that times change and so should laws...

Anonymous said...

You are an idiot.

Anonymous said...

Smoke Weed Every day

btw keep jesus out of this.

Anonymous said...

how many research reports have you read in your life andrew...? in honesty? I doubt you have looked up any data bases lately. Also, from what you say about marijuana I doubt you have ever smoked it or seen its effects on a regular smoker. If you had you would know that marijuana does the opposite of everything you say. And what was that you were saying about not being able to die from heroin withdrawel but being able to die from alcohol withdrawel? Read that in one of your research papers did you? By the way...if you smoked that much pot say 7 years ago (adjust for inflation) it would have cost you about $200 a week. suprising you could hold down a job with that much spending money when you were such a waster.

andrew brown said...

you must not know me at all. why didn't you put your name?

anyway, you make a lot of (wrong) assumptions. for starters, smoking weed does NOT equal being a waster. i had some friends who were wasters but i was not one. it wasn't 7 years ago but back in 2000-2001. i smoked everyday but not all day during the week as i had a decent job, and now have been promoted to production manager in that same job. i didn't spend that much because people who do spend that much obviously don't know where to get their weed and therefore pay a lot for it, i didn't spend that much on it

and you doubt i've ever done it or seen the effects on a regular smoker? where the hell do you get that from? you have no idea how much this post has annoyed/insulted me. why do you doubt people dying from alcohol withdrawl but not heroin withdrawl. sure people on a heroin withdrawl could go to extreme lengths to stop it and possibly kill themselves, but on a basic level depriving an addicted body from heroin will not kill the body. on the other hand in extreme cases alcoholics can actually DIE from their body not getting alcohol. my wife is a nurse and she has seen people on an ethanol drip to counteract those effects.

marijuana does the opposite of everything i say? i haven't really claimed that it does a lot of things other than it's direct psychoactive effects, and if you doubt me i seriously think that you've never smoked lots or been around many chronic smokers. sure you may have been high a few times, thinking that thats enough to see "what it's about" and maybe met a few people no doubt in certain circles who have "been through it" and say that it's a terrible thing, i don't doubt it, some people have had bad experiences with it, but some people have bad experiences with EVERYTHING so a few people out of a lot isn't a decent reason to stop something. some people are allergic to nuts but does that mean nuts are bad? hell no. some people smoke every day of their life and they turn out fine, and look how cigarettes and fast food is tolerated? those + alcohol are the biggest killers in our society.

people like you piss me off so much because you're so set in your ways and thinking that what is good for you is good for everybody. i'm not here to tell everyone to get high, people can do what they want for all i care. i'm no one's nanny. but i think people should be properly educated to make their OWN wise decisions, not "wise" decisions that other people make for them.

Anonymous said...

Actually drinking beer also gives you man boobs...on another point of contention...indeed Pot is not an intoxicant but a stimulant..it stimulates dopamine class neuroadrenals which have sedative effects but none the less it is a stimulant...however that being said pot can be a dangerous substance and despite various studies to the contrary is an addictive substance. However like most illegal drugs much of the harm associated with it's use could be elimintaed or diminished by legalisation. My persoanl view point is that you either ban all recreational drugs (including alcohol which is technically a poison not a drug)or legalise all drugs. Addiction is medically considered to be a disease and yet you can be locked up just for using some drugs...maybe we should lock up anybody with a disease...such as cancer, epilepsy and multiple sclerosis for the same reason...god knows that the families of people who suffer from such disease suffer similar financial, emotional and social hardships...That's my 5c...2c no longer being legal tender...

Anonymous said...

Since somebody brought God into this....In Genesis it clearly states that "I give you all the seed bearing plants on Earth to Use!" And God being all omnipotent I'm sure it was not an oversight that the highly fibrous grass hemp also had pschoactive properties...as a side note most early 'paper' bibles were printed on hemp...Furthermore the bible specifically states "Thou shall not drink" doesn't say anything about reefers despite Hemp being used for it's psychoactive properties since at least 4000BC. As a wise young 'waster' said to me once...Man made whisky god made pot...who do you trust?"

As for research papers i think the other anonymous should read some of the recent studies which advocate the leagalisation of marihuana under a harm minimisation policy and also the various mediacal associations which want Marihuana legalised for mediacal reasons.

PLenty of these articles and studies are available on the net so I suggest you Google before you rant my ignorant and anonymous friend.

May buddhas compassion go with you.

As churchill once said a lie can be half the way around before the truth has it's pants on! He also said (in refernce to depression) "If you ever find yourself in hell keep on walking..."

Another 5c makes 10c in all...a dime for your time to end with a lousy Rhyme.

Keep on smiling tree huggers!

All the best from down under...